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 What causes random fliers? 
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UnterWOCer

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Unread post What causes random fliers?
I have a used HW100 in .22 and using a full magazine of JSB exact or H&N FTT, I'll get about 60% of pellets in a very tight group <10mm at 33M range but the rest of the pellets wander off, in no particular direction, by about 10-20mm.

I get this shooting from a rest in calm conditions.

I wondered if it was me (but was sure it wasn't!), so I took the action out of the stock and made a fixed clamp for it, which is in turn clamped to a brick pier. It's rock solid.

I can see it shoot 3 or 4 pellets into the same hole, one after the other and there will be a flier, then back into the same hole.

I've had 10 pellets into an 8mm centre to centre group with the other 4 dropping outside the main group by 10mm.

Could this be an issue with seating of the pellet? Is it possible for the probe to skew the pellet?

The gun does this with 3 different types of pellet.

Should I keep trying different pellet brands?

The gun chrono's within a few ft/sec and seems very consistent.

Any other ideas?


Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:04 am
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OberWOCer

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Unread post Re: What causes random fliers?
um,a tricky one , have you tried (hand/eye,picking pellets) just to try the option .


Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:11 am
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VunderWOCer

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Unread post Re: What causes random fliers?
well done, at least you know it is not you. i always recommend clamping down
have you got ribbons or similar hanging? if there is crosswind it is difficult to get groupings.
in my garden if i shoot one direction easy to make single holes, if i go 45 degrees from there (relative to wind direction) groups open up. a lot.

i had a .22 was PIA, went back to HC, after 4 weeks came back the same. Had a .22 bsa barrel installed by a well know gunsmith who damaged my action when he was breaking it into half. Plus lost the cylinders dustplug. Groupings were still not great then i worked on the pellet probe, valve block and regulator piston i swapped it for a different length. stuff like that. there was some extra hidden grubcrew loose on the hammer rivet, there too wearing on the action internally. pile of ****. now when i look at it, it has got a worn valve block assembly, on the bottom and side, the way pellets enter. Deformed probe even the action is worn BUT somehow it sorted itself. i believe it was an alignement problem all the time.
I think it just needed breaking in. literally.


shoots ok now currently

if it was a new gun i would say return it. will drive you nuts.
barrel change is easy to do. but may not be it.
is the pellets ok after passing over the transferport (may have sharp edges), through the barrel, shape wise, you need to try without the mag, with mag, some shoot it into really deep water.


people roll pellets not only sort by weight. how they roll willl show you how regular is the pellet head and the pellet skirt, both

i guess it is not a boring gun
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Unread post Re: What causes random fliers?
kris wrote:
well done, at least you know it is not you. i always recommend clamping down
have you got ribbons or similar hanging? if there is crosswind it is difficult to get groupings.
in my garden if i shoot one direction easy to make single holes, if i go 45 degrees from there (relative to wind direction) groups open up. a lot.

i had a .22 was PIA, went back to HC, after 4 weeks came back the same. Had a .22 bsa barrel installed by a well know gunsmith who damaged my action when he was breaking it into half. Plus lost the cylinders dustplug. Groupings were still not great then i worked on the pellet probe, valve block and regulator piston i swapped it for a different length. stuff like that. there was some extra hidden grubcrew loose on the hammer rivet, there too wearing on the action internally. pile of ****. now when i look at it, it has got a worn valve block assembly, on the bottom and side, the way pellets enter. Deformed probe even the action is worn BUT somehow it sorted itself. i believe it was an alignement problem all the time.
I think it just needed breaking in. literally.


shoots ok now currently

if it was a new gun i would say return it. will drive you nuts.
barrel change is easy to do. but may not be it.
is the pellets ok after passing over the transferport (may have sharp edges), through the barrel, shape wise, you need to try without the mag, with mag, some shoot it into really deep water.


people roll pellets not only sort by weight. how they roll willl show you how regular is the pellet head and the pellet skirt, both

i guess it is not a boring gun :lol:

some people say fliers are normal with an airgun. but if it is too bad, you never know where is it going to shoot so not good. i guess you tried more than 5pellet brands heee? cleaned barrel, re leaded and tested. when you test, shoot many of the same brand before you look into groupings, few magazines worth. or you will be shooting between pellets types/brands without settled down barrel/pellet combination.



Thanks for the suggestions.

It's a used gun, so no come back there. Serves me right for not testing accuracy over a long range!

I have made a pellet trap with a length of sewerage pipe so I can check the pellets for rifling marks and skirt damage. I am seeing some pellets with uneven marks (deeper on one side), so this is what's making me suspect the pellet probe isn't seating the pellet perfectly every time.

I will check to see if there's any lead in (as in chamfer, not lead) at the breech end of the barrel.




The barrel is clean but it had some damage to the bore at the muzzle end. (see my other post)

I have actually cut off the last 25mm of the barrel where the damage was. I turned the end up square and put a small chamfer (crown) on. It's nice and clean and doesn't pick up any fluff off a cotton wool bud.

I realise I will have lost the choke by doing this, but it has definitely improved the grouping from 40mm groups down to under 10mm with these odd fliers.

I took this drastic action as I was resigned to buying a new barrel anyway, so I figured I had nothing to loose by chopping the knackered bit off.

Having a lathe handy helps of course...

If I get it sorted, I'll cut a new silencer thread on it. if not I'll try a new barrel.


Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:06 am
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VunderWOCer

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Unread post Re: What causes random fliers?
it sounds like you are well equipped.
just order a blank from here
https://www.db-schietsport.nl/en/access ... r-walther/

I would avoid polygon for a start.


Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:33 pm
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UnterWOCer

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Unread post Re: What causes random fliers?
kris wrote:
it sounds like you are well equipped.
just order a blank from here
https://www.db-schietsport.nl/en/access ... r-walther/

I would avoid polygon for a start.


Can you elaborate regarding polygonal rifling? Isn't this what the Weihrauch FSB barrel has and what people swear by (not at!)?

I haven't considered just ordering a blank and machining it up to suit. Not too difficult. The main issue appears to be the fact the bore is never concentric to the outside of the barrel. The barrel I have is quite bad in this respect...


Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:38 pm
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OberWOCer

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Unread post Re: What causes random fliers?
why not order a barrel already to fit ,https://www.gunspares.co.uk/products/24752/HW100/ ok i can see there is only the long barrel in stock.as for the bore not being concentric , no problem just move the barrel around till it shoots 12 o clock. (ie) tape on barrel marked up fron 0 to 12, leave site as is an shoot at same spot ,move barrel a little be at a time ,(yes time consuming) should leave a rough circle on target ,move barrel to corresponding 12 o,clock on target ( might be any other number on barrel tape.


Sun Oct 09, 2016 6:48 pm
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UnterWOCer

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Unread post Re: What causes random fliers?
Bladerunnertoo wrote:
why not order a barrel already to fit ,https://www.gunspares.co.uk/products/24752/HW100/ ok i can see there is only the long barrel in stock.as for the bore not being concentric , no problem just move the barrel around till it shoots 12 o clock. (ie) tape on barrel marked up fron 0 to 12, leave site as is an shoot at same spot ,move barrel a little be at a time ,(yes time consuming) should leave a rough circle on target ,move barrel to corresponding 12 o,clock on target ( might be any other number on barrel tape.


Yes, I had a look around for a new barrel, but Chambers is out of stock and doesn't know when they'll get any more in. Knibbs is showing stock but theirs are £30 more expensive.

I want to see if I can find the root cause before blowing £115 and getting no improvement...

If the barrel is still an issue I can't see how it would shoot bang on 60% of the time!


Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:23 pm
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OberWOCer

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Unread post Re: What causes random fliers?
well if you have had it clamped ,what else could it be but the barrel ?


Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:59 pm
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UnterWOCer

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Unread post Re: What causes random fliers?
Bladerunnertoo wrote:
well if you have had it clamped ,what else could it be but the barrel ?


Indeed, but i don't know enough about the intricacies of the HW100.

I would have assumed that a dodgy barrel would cause general loss of accuracy rather than intermittent loss of accuracy.

That's why I wondered about the pellet seating.


Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:18 pm
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NeuWOCer

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Unread post Re: What causes random fliers?
It could be pellets. Have you tried AA diablo fields? mine does this unless I use these.
H&N FTT are better than the JSB Exacts but still not as good as AA's. It seems that the 22 HW100 is more fussy than the 177 version.


Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:04 pm
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UnterWOCer

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Unread post Re: What causes random fliers?
Hi, The two .22 100s that I have here will put pellet on pellet at 25 yds. Nothing wrong with polygon barrels, how ever they do like a larger pellet. I did need to crown the barrel on the Karbine. ( took all of ten minutes ) And I used a usb microscope to check the finish.

I also found that H&N ftt vary in weight. I no longer use H&Ns.
The pellet fired from a polygon has very little marking on it (if any) if the barrel finish is OK. The .22 will use AA 5.52, Falcons, JSB 15.89. 5.2, JsB RS Accupel FT
But when testing a air rifle, the pellet is the week link in the chain. I weigh, measure and check each pellet on a piece of mirror.
Odd fliers point to pellets, you do not say bad groups.


Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:51 am
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UnterWOCer

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Unread post Re: What causes random fliers?
Ratty47 wrote:
Hi, The two .22 100s that I have here will put pellet on pellet at 25 yds. Nothing wrong with polygon barrels, how ever they do like a larger pellet. I did need to crown the barrel on the Karbine. ( took all of ten minutes ) And I used a usb microscope to check the finish.

I also found that H&N ftt vary in weight. I no longer use H&Ns.
The pellet fired from a polygon has very little marking on it (if any) if the barrel finish is OK. The .22 will use AA 5.52, Falcons, JSB 15.89. 5.2, JsB RS Accupel FT
But when testing a air rifle, the pellet is the week link in the chain. I weigh, measure and check each pellet on a piece of mirror.
Odd fliers point to pellets, you do not say bad groups.


I have weighed out a batch of H&N but still got the same results. JSB and AA all do the same. The H&N are 5.53.

I may try some Bisley Mags just for the hell of it!


Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:28 am
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NeuWOCer

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Unread post Re: What causes random fliers?
Hi rich i have the exact same problem with an fsb barrel in 177 its taken me ages to find out the problem and i think ive sussed it if your barrel is anything like ie groups 7 pellets on the crosshairs and 3 pellets 2 inches low and to the right.it turns out its a simple case of a tight choke and every pellet tested through this barrel with standard head sizes produced two seperate groups within ten shots. H&n ftt 4.50 sorted my barrel out and it now produces single hole groups at 35 yards.


Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:45 pm
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UnterWOCer

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Unread post Re: What causes random fliers?
carriss wrote:
Hi rich i have the exact same problem with an fsb barrel in 177 its taken me ages to find out the problem and i think ive sussed it if your barrel is anything like ie groups 7 pellets on the crosshairs and 3 pellets 2 inches low and to the right.it turns out its a simple case of a tight choke and every pellet tested through this barrel with standard head sizes produced two seperate groups within ten shots. H&n ftt 4.50 sorted my barrel out and it now produces single hole groups at 35 yards.


I wish!

I have cut the choke off my barrel (it was where all the damage was), so it ain't that!


Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:21 pm
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