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 Combustion in a Springer - which side of the fence are you? 
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OberWOCer

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Unread post Combustion in a Springer - which side of the fence are you?
This is a seemingly never ending debate - "do modern springers burn oil" i.e. does "combustion" take place as a norm?

As it's referendum time how about a quick vote - "burn" or "not burn"?

Not saying which side of the fence I am (but some of you know).

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Weihrauch HW35E 1979 .177/.22 (both barrels) Optima 4x32 wa tt / Tasco 628T 3-9x40 tt / Open sights / Weihrauch Mikro-Präzisions Diopter
Weihrauch HW80 mk 1 .243 (Harper) Simmons WTC11 1.5-5x20 wa
Weihrauch HW80 mk 1 .22 Kassnar 3-9x56 wa ao tt
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Weihrauch HW77 mk 1 .22 Optima 3-9x40 wa tt / Tasco World Class 6-18x40 ao tt
Weihrauch HW77k mk2 .22 Optima 3-9x40 wa tt / Tasco TR 6-24x40 ao tt
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Webley Longbow (Turkish) .22 Simmons WTC13 3.5-10x40 wa
BSA Mercury mk3 .22 Tasco AG 1.75-5x40 wa oa
BSA Meteor mk1 .22 Tasco 663 A 4x32
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Webley Tempest (Brum) .177/.22 (both barrels) Original Mod'5 1.5x15 / open sights


Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:46 pm
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Unread post Re: Combustion in a Springer - which side of the fence are y
As a norm? No.

As a result of over-lubrication? Frequently.


Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:19 am
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Unread post Re: Combustion in a Springer - which side of the fence are y
Thanks for getting off the fence Les and getting the ball rolling. :D

I'll do the same - but I'm a yes. :shock:

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Weihrauch HW35E 1979 .177/.22 (both barrels) Optima 4x32 wa tt / Tasco 628T 3-9x40 tt / Open sights / Weihrauch Mikro-Präzisions Diopter
Weihrauch HW80 mk 1 .243 (Harper) Simmons WTC11 1.5-5x20 wa
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Weihrauch HW80 mk 2 .177 Kassnar 3-9x40 wa ao tt / ATN MK390
Weihrauch HW77 mk 1 .22 Optima 3-9x40 wa tt / Tasco World Class 6-18x40 ao tt
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BSA Mercury mk3 .22 Tasco AG 1.75-5x40 wa oa
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Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:43 am
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Unread post Re: Combustion in a Springer - which side of the fence are y
I read an article someone did about airguns, and they even measured the temp of the dieselling combustion. I can't remember what it was, but it was surprisingly high.

I would have to say a tentative yes.

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Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:35 am
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Unread post Re: Combustion in a Springer - which side of the fence are y
I can't speak for all springers, but none of mine do. They are lubed throughout with Krytox which is nonflammable even in pure oxygen.

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Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:33 am
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Unread post Re: Combustion in a Springer - which side of the fence are y
For me it's a no, as long as it's lubed correctly!
I don't believe we could achieve the levels of consistency we do if they did.


Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:08 pm
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Unread post Re: Combustion in a Springer - which side of the fence are y
It's easy to tell, sniff the muzzle (off bore-line of course) straight after a shot and the Mk.1 human nose will detect smoke / combustion smells if there are any. Do NOT reload between shooting and sniffing. And don't form a habit for it... you won't fit in at the smoking shelter if you pull an HW80 out, even if you tell them it's a novelty E-cig. :|

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Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:55 pm
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Unread post Re: Combustion in a Springer - which side of the fence are y
Gee, there's some sound reasoning there. Non flammable lube certainly makes sense and would eliminate "burn"

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Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:51 pm
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Unread post Re: Combustion in a Springer - which side of the fence are y
I would say an air rifle should not diesel if lubed correctly. But I do know of people that have sprayed wd40 over their prize guns and have smelt the burning of it. It takes ages to burn off too.

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Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:29 pm
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Unread post Re: Combustion in a Springer - which side of the fence are y
Thanks for the replies - to be honest I was expecting a torrent of abuse for even suggesting that your "Darlings" might be "Dieseling".

I was prompted to start this when I stumbled across an old post that contained:-

"My opinion is that even with modern springers, if running correctly, a miniscule amount of lube is burnt with each shot. This should be too little to notice any smoke or even smell. The benefit of this is to give that little bit of help to the spring energy meaning lower recoil and cocking effort for the same power. I vastly respect the Cardews' research and they had synthetic seals as well as leather ones."

This is PRECISELY my opinion - I won't say who the author is (I have PMed to confirm he still holds this opinion, but no reply as yet) but it is a well known WOCER.

I have been home tuning HWs (mainly 77s) for over 30 years and can give them any "feel" I choose - "short and snappy" or "soft and ponderous" or whatever.
The HW80 I am tuning at the moment is quite an eye opener - I've got it undecided on two states - it will either be a CONSISTENT, sluggish, 11.8 fpe or a VERY CONSISTENT quite snappy 13.6 - in either state there is ABSOLUTELY no indication of smoke or smell, NOBODY would suggest this rifle is "dieseling" - so where is the extra energy coming from? (What is VERY interesting is that it only does this on the heavier AA Field, on Superdome it stays at a consistent 11.3 fpe).

I know how to tip this into one state or the other - it's that "minuscule" amount of lube that matters.

To get it to do this I have followed the modern trend of "minimum lubrication" and by honing the cylinder down to 1000 grit (would normally stop at 500) , then to 0000 wire wool, THEN finishing off with "T-CUT", similarly with the piston seal.

The only way I know to guarantee that it doesn't burn oil is to use "KRYTOX" or similar.

So come on, I've said my bit - it's your turn now. :lol:

_________________
Air Arms TX200 mk3 .22 Zenit-BelOMO 3-9x40 ffp / Vector Optics 10-40x56 sf tt ffp
Weihrauch HW35E 1979 .177/.22 (both barrels) Optima 4x32 wa tt / Tasco 628T 3-9x40 tt / Open sights / Weihrauch Mikro-Präzisions Diopter
Weihrauch HW80 mk 1 .243 (Harper) Simmons WTC11 1.5-5x20 wa
Weihrauch HW80 mk 1 .22 Kassnar 3-9x56 wa ao tt
Weihrauch HW80 mk 2 .177 Kassnar 3-9x40 wa ao tt / ATN MK390
Weihrauch HW77 mk 1 .22 Optima 3-9x40 wa tt / Tasco World Class 6-18x40 ao tt
Weihrauch HW77k mk2 .22 Optima 3-9x40 wa tt / Tasco TR 6-24x40 ao tt
Webley Omega Carbine .22 Tasco AG 2-7x32 wa oa tt
Webley Stingray Express LE .22 Simmons WTC13 3.5-10x40 wa
Webley Longbow (Turkish) .22 Simmons WTC13 3.5-10x40 wa
BSA Mercury mk3 .22 Tasco AG 1.75-5x40 wa oa
BSA Meteor mk1 .22 Tasco 663 A 4x32
BSA Meteor mk5 .22 Tasco 629 AG 3-9x32
Webley Tempest (Brum) .177/.22 (both barrels) Original Mod'5 1.5x15 / open sights


Last edited by has2baspringer on Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:17 pm
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Unread post Re: Combustion in a Springer - which side of the fence are y
Gary in WV wrote:
I can't speak for all springers, but none of mine do. They are lubed throughout with Krytox which is nonflammable even in pure oxygen.


What's the Krytox product in particular you use?

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Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:13 am
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Unread post Re: Combustion in a Springer - which side of the fence are y
Pablo5 wrote:
What's the Krytox product in particular you use?


Krytox 205 is what I use. It's relatively expensive, but a little goes a long way, and it stays put and doesn't deteriorate. Be sure to thoroughly de-grease everything you put it on. It doesn't like to be mixed with petroleum based lubes. A small tube will easily lube 2-3 rifles throughout.

I have to agree with has2bespringer's rationale. The compression chamber is anything but a perfect seal and some lube is bound to find its way past the seal...IMO. That's why I switched to Krytox.

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Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:05 am
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Unread post Re: Combustion in a Springer - which side of the fence are y
has2baspringer,

My 99S & 95 Super Match don't as they have no oil or grease anywhere near the compression chamber - the insides & piston/seal are lubed with moly/graphite powder (which has been burnished into their surfaces) and the spring is coated with dry moly spray.

I have a Walther LG55 with leather piston seal, which consistently low-level burns lube - when I am brave enough to cope with its evil trigger disconnect, I will have it apart and dry-lube it. My other leather-sealed rifle, a Diana 35, also low-level burns lube.

Have fun & a good weekend :)

Best regards

Russ


Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:37 am
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Unread post Re: Combustion in a Springer - which side of the fence are y
PhatMan wrote:

My 99S & 95 Super Match don't as they have no oil or grease anywhere near the compression chamber - the insides & piston/seal are lubed with moly/graphite powder (which has been burnished into their surfaces) and the spring is coated with dry moly spray.


That's an alternative :) - may try that on the 80, but I've still got some Krytox left so will try that first - that's assuming I can't get the fpe to a reasonable level.

Thanks :D

_________________
Air Arms TX200 mk3 .22 Zenit-BelOMO 3-9x40 ffp / Vector Optics 10-40x56 sf tt ffp
Weihrauch HW35E 1979 .177/.22 (both barrels) Optima 4x32 wa tt / Tasco 628T 3-9x40 tt / Open sights / Weihrauch Mikro-Präzisions Diopter
Weihrauch HW80 mk 1 .243 (Harper) Simmons WTC11 1.5-5x20 wa
Weihrauch HW80 mk 1 .22 Kassnar 3-9x56 wa ao tt
Weihrauch HW80 mk 2 .177 Kassnar 3-9x40 wa ao tt / ATN MK390
Weihrauch HW77 mk 1 .22 Optima 3-9x40 wa tt / Tasco World Class 6-18x40 ao tt
Weihrauch HW77k mk2 .22 Optima 3-9x40 wa tt / Tasco TR 6-24x40 ao tt
Webley Omega Carbine .22 Tasco AG 2-7x32 wa oa tt
Webley Stingray Express LE .22 Simmons WTC13 3.5-10x40 wa
Webley Longbow (Turkish) .22 Simmons WTC13 3.5-10x40 wa
BSA Mercury mk3 .22 Tasco AG 1.75-5x40 wa oa
BSA Meteor mk1 .22 Tasco 663 A 4x32
BSA Meteor mk5 .22 Tasco 629 AG 3-9x32
Webley Tempest (Brum) .177/.22 (both barrels) Original Mod'5 1.5x15 / open sights


Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:14 pm
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Unread post Re: Combustion in a Springer - which side of the fence are y
I say yes there's quite a few people I know who run em with a bit of oil because it's helps to stop the piston seal wearing out and helps to keep it soft


Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:51 pm
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