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 Lubrication 
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Unread post Lubrication
I'm not talking pellet lube, I'm talking lubrication on the metal/metal parts inside spring gun actions

Doing lots of automotive work, I've got a fair selection of different lubricants for various jobs. I recently stripped and rebuilt my HW97K and while I was at it I cleaned the front face of the piston. Typically I'd use a lithium soap based grease (castrol lm) for this and I've got some high-temp suitable grease - I also applied a smear here and there on various other parts to smooth the action and the HW97K has taken on a silky smooth action

Just wondering what other people have used and their results/recommendations

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Tue May 01, 2012 11:51 am
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VunderWOCer
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Unread post Re: Lubrication
This is the stuff you need:-
http://compare.ebay.co.uk/like/30060454 ... adtype=pla

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Tue May 01, 2012 12:10 pm
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Unread post Re: Lubrication
I've got CV Moly grease as well, why CV joint grease and not a general purpose LM? LM is used in high load metal/metal type bearings all over, Moly is an additive to increase the load bearing tolerance of the grease film (so it's good in CV joints which have particularly high contact load stress points) and none of the load points for grease application on a HW97k seem to justify a moly type grease to me

Just curious to know why one thing and not another

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HW97K .177 + V-Glide + MTC Mamba 4-16x50
BSA Scorpion .177, T-Regged + Falcon Menace FFP 4-14x44


Tue May 01, 2012 1:35 pm
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Unread post Re: Lubrication
The CV grease has a high moly content which is recommended for use in guns. LT2 for instance, is the same stuff only very expensive for a little amount. The only two other things recommended are Maccarri's moly paste 70% moly, and Honda paste which is 60% moly. They are, however, much more expensive than a tin of CV grease. ;)

http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/cat ... /42989.htm
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AS60-60-Moly- ... 1e6d53e8fa

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Tue May 01, 2012 4:07 pm
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Unread post Re: Lubrication
Another lube I've considered is Dri-Slide but I can't find it for love nor money. Chambers do MoS2 powder for under a fiver though but I'm not keen on brushing it on as an application method, especially if I sneeze :roll:

I've considered this 'spray on and let it dry then buff to finish' Spray Moly stuff too. This would be used inside the piston chamber and on the piston body itself - maybe not on the piston buffer.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AMBERSIL-Dry- ... 4842a70ace

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Tue May 01, 2012 4:34 pm
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Unread post Re: Lubrication
Molykote GN Plus paste lightly burnished into the cylinder and a small smear around the piston skirt and rear of the seal is also good- a very similar approach to rubbing moly powder into the same areas.


Tue May 01, 2012 6:16 pm
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Unread post Re: Lubrication
Welsh Willy sells dri slide on his site. He can be reached here:-

http://www.woodfield-gcp.co.uk/

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Weihrauch HW95K B&C tuned, HW35k B&C tuned, BAM B26-2 venoman tuned carbine, QB78DL Custom carbine.
http://ukchineseairgunforum.myfreeforum.org/index.php


Tue May 01, 2012 6:54 pm
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Unread post Re: Lubrication
uk litehammer wrote:
Welsh Willy sells dri slide on his site. He can be reached here:-

http://www.woodfield-gcp.co.uk/
Brilliant! I'm going to phone them tomorrow. I've trawled the net for yonks looking for it and you've come up trumps for me there. Many thanks Litehammer :)

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Tue May 01, 2012 8:59 pm
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Unread post Re: Lubrication
Ok, but I'm trying to work out the justification to use moly (after all, moly's intended for use in high load application, not a light scuffing application where there's minimal load bearing) over a conventional plain LM grease?

About the only thing I can see as desirable in this case is that it must be able to lubricate at normal world temperatures (ie, -20 to 50 centigrade) and be water resistant enough to prevent water ingress into the working surfaces. I can't see the loads being particularly high on most of the working surfaces - about the only exception is between the top hat and piston inner surface on a v-mach kit (even then, the pressures aren't that high as the forces are distributed over a large area)

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BSA Scorpion .177, T-Regged + Falcon Menace FFP 4-14x44


Tue May 01, 2012 9:08 pm
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Unread post Re: Lubrication
Quote:
Ok, but I'm trying to work out the justification to use moly

Like uk litehammer said, one option is to use Maccari’s “moly paste” which is what I buy.

WHY USE MOLY:?: what do the experts say?

First, for me, because one of the best tuners and airgun experts in the world just happens to make a special moly blend and he carries a lot of weight all by himself with many years in the airgun tuning and part manufacturing business and still going strong.

Second is a lot of other good air gunners and expert tuners I know use it as well. :salut:

Maccari's MoS2 paste is a high blend of Molybdenum disulphide plus petroleum base-anti galling Additives ( for obvious reasons) and like graphite, it is widely used as a solid lubricant because of its low friction properties and robustness.

Also, few alternatives like MoS2 exist that have high lubricity and stability up to 350 °C ( 662 F° ) in oxidizing environments, (like the interior of airguns which can reach as much as 2,000 F for brief periods and will light off most petroleum products :notcool:

Other desirable properties of MoS2 with particle sizes in the range of 1–100 µm is a common dry lubricant and is often a component of blends and composites where low friction is sought. It can be easily used with a variety of oils and grease. It also retains its lubricity even in cases of almost complete oil loss so it will almost last forever in an airgun if properly applied or at least a very, very long time.

Proof is always seen in the performance so ask guys who use it and see what other benefits that also might be there as there are others including making your gun shoot more consistent velocities improving one accuracy.

My question about the use of moly is why manufactures like Weihrauch don't use it but then again they don't do a number of things that I think they should like de-bur their guns or produce a special spring for the 12ft/lbs communities as it is a large market.

Cheers

Richard


Wed May 02, 2012 2:40 am
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Unread post Re: Lubrication
R124300 wrote:
Like uk litehammer said, one option is to use Maccari’s “moly paste” which is what I buy.

WHY USE MOLY:?: what do the experts say?

First, for me, because one of the best tuners and airgun experts in the world just happens to make a special moly blend and he carries a lot of weight all by himself with many years in the airgun tuning and part manufacturing business and still going strong.

Second is a lot of other good air gunners and expert tuners I know use it as well. :salut:

Maccari's MoS2 paste is a high blend of Molybdenum disulphide plus petroleum base-anti galling Additives ( for obvious reasons) and like graphite, it is widely used as a solid lubricant because of its low friction properties and robustness.

Also, few alternatives like MoS2 exist that have high lubricity and stability up to 350 °C ( 662 F° ) in oxidizing environments, (like the interior of airguns which can reach as much as 2,000 F for brief periods and will light off most petroleum products :notcool:

Other desirable properties of MoS2 with particle sizes in the range of 1–100 µm is a common dry lubricant and is often a component of blends and composites where low friction is sought. It can be easily used with a variety of oils and grease. It also retains its lubricity even in cases of almost complete oil loss so it will almost last forever in an airgun if properly applied or at least a very, very long time.

Proof is always seen in the performance so ask guys who use it and see what other benefits that also might be there as there are others including making your gun shoot more consistent velocities improving one accuracy.

My question about the use of moly is why manufactures like Weihrauch don't use it but then again they don't do a number of things that I think they should like de-bur their guns or produce a special spring for the 12ft/lbs communities as it is a large market.

Cheers

Richard


Hi Richard, I'm familiar with the properties of Molybdenum disulphide, which is why I'm questioning the use in an air rifle. In cars it gets used in CV joints, which usually have three contact points under high loads during acceleration and deceleration. They're usually contained in a rubber boot that keeps water and dirt out. Wheel bearings on the other hand will bear a continuous, comparitively light, load and they are lubricated with plain LM grease and usually continuously exposed to air and water. Trailers will have a marine (water and salt resistant) grade grease as they are designed to be continuously submerged in water.

I've got some experience with lubricants, I use a variety when I'm building cars, I'm looking for some feedback from any of the experts as to why they use one over another - does it confer some properties that are not immediately obvious?

Now, fine powders are often used to polish things (as they will act as an abrasive) and once you remove the carrying grease from a moly paste, you have just that (Which is one reason why some surfaces are treated to burnish the moly into the surface so it doesn't act as an abrasive). I'm more than familiar with the use of the incorrect grease in some scenarios (if I catch anyone using copper grease on the sliding pins of a floating brake caliper they'll get an ear bashing, the number of seized pins I've had to fix...)

My HW97K has moving parts that are exposed to air and water (especially when it rains) and I want to ensure that they continue to move and slide freely against each other in 20 years time. My point was that the loads on those sliding surfaces are low - they're not bearing significant weight - and the points where temperatures may rise are in an area that should be free from grease. I would have thought a low temperature marine grade plain grease would be the best solution for an air rifle, I'm keen to hear others thoughts

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BSA Scorpion .177, T-Regged + Falcon Menace FFP 4-14x44


Wed May 02, 2012 8:09 am
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Unread post Re: Lubrication
Just a few thought's off the top of my head...

I have to admit I've never heard of an air rifle manufacturer or tuner using low temperature marine grease, but then I have heard of many applications of MoS2 in air guns, gears, and sometimes as an additive in combustion engines. I think MoS2 in ultra fine powder form is a soft metal a bit like soft pencil lead which acts as a lubricant and a buffer in its own right, not an abrasive.

I think there's a type of soluble Molybdenum used in most high quality engine oils as part of the oil's anti wear additive pack. Overall though, doesn't the Molybdenum bond with the metal components surface, and thus reduce friction and wear? It can also improve surface tolerances to reduce oil use and smooth running in engines? The shear amount of Molybdenum products out there suggests it isn't snake oil to be honest. If people like Welsh Willy, Steve Pope and many others are using derivatives of Molybdenum in their tuning products makes me thinks it's an okay product. As I say, just my thoughts off the top of my head.

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Wed May 02, 2012 10:46 am
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Unread post Re: Lubrication
True, I'm not denying the useability of Moly greases, I'm just thinking that most waterproof marine grade stuff doesn't use it (don't know why) and a waterproof grease would be best for outdoor use where it may get occasional wetting.

Since dismantling mine, cleaning up and putting regular LM grease in place, mine's running very smooth (not yet chrono'd it) and is noticeably quieter on the cocking stroke (although that could just be down to giving it a clean out). Pretty sure the weihrauch grease is a thick marine type grease, on most of it with a moly type between the piston and chamber. I'll chrono it tonight and see how it's performing

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BSA Scorpion .177, T-Regged + Falcon Menace FFP 4-14x44


Wed May 02, 2012 11:33 am
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Unread post Re: Lubrication
Finally, I'd just like to add that moly grease should only be used on the internals of a gun, apart from breakbarrels where it's used on the breech jaws and bolt. None of this should get wet theoretically, and the outside of the gun which does get exposed to rain etc, should always be kept wiped down with something like Ballistol Unisiversal, Napier, Brunox etc. None of which are moly based products. Also, on things like triggers, pivots, hinges etc, something like SM50 should be used, which is a silicone carrier with a fair amount of moly in that too. ;) ;) ;) The moly grease and dri slide used on the internals will eventually bond itself to the metal parts and will look like black glass. Then the gun can be run with the smallest amount of lube on anything in there. None of this will ever happen with the low temp marine type greases, which is why they are just not used. ;) ;) ;)

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You ain't so big, you jus' tall tha's all.
Weihrauch HW95K B&C tuned, HW35k B&C tuned, BAM B26-2 venoman tuned carbine, QB78DL Custom carbine.
http://ukchineseairgunforum.myfreeforum.org/index.php


Wed May 02, 2012 1:07 pm
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Unread post Re: Lubrication
Am buying some Dri-Slide off the Woodfield link Litehammer kindly provided :) I've looked high and low for that stuff! Cheers Litehammer! :)

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Thu May 03, 2012 2:56 pm
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